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In this episode of the Cryptocurrency Investing podcast, we’ll be talking to They Call Me Dan about the very contentious origins of Hive, the web 3.0 social media protocol.

Resources mentioned in the episode:

Dan’s 3Speak account:

Louis’ 3Speak account:



Please note: I’ve used an AI transcription service, which means there’s probably plenty of errors. At some point I’ll get a human to correct it.


Okay, so Dan, the very first question I had for you today is all about, I want to know how you got into steam in the first place, and what was it that actually drew you and your kind of very beginnings in the steam platform versus. Any other possible competitors or cryptocurrencies around at that time?


Yeah, so when I first got into steem, I was actually just gotten a Bitcoin, and once that clicked, I started searching the internet, cryptocurrencies, blockchain and steam was popping up everywhere and I was actually getting a lot of the. You know, um, blockchain information. I was looking for off of steam, and then I signed up because I was on Cora.

And then Cora was censoring my answers around that time. Um, I was the top writer on Quora, stopped using it. So I really liked the fact that you owned your account. Once that clicked for me, I really started going down the rabbit hole because I thought, wow, you know, w web three we need ownership of our account.

Like Bitcoin, not your keys, not your, not your coins. Same thing with social media. You know, if it’s not your keys, it’s not your account. Yeah. So that’s one of the first things that got me in this thing. And did you know at that time, did you have any idea that you’d become so. You would be diving so deep specifically into the kind of web 3.0 and social media aspect of crypto and the blockchain, or did you just eventually kind of stumble into that and realized that was the path that you wanted to take?

So I felt like I was a warrior without a weapon, and the blockchain was that weapon. So I was going around trying, this is what I’ve always believed in. I didn’t, I was against censorship. I was for free speech, I was for the ownership of your actual assets instead of having Fiat that could be inflated away.

Um, and I know gold wasn’t going to do it. So I was always looking for something like that. And when it finally clicked, I was like, wow. W you know, we really have a chance now. Like we can really build a mutable sites. Immutable communities have immutable value transfer that censorship resistant for the first time in history.

So I went all in. Once I figured it clicked, I was like, this is exactly what I want to do with my life. And for a bit of context, what kind of time was that? When did you really get specifically into steam? What kind of timeframe are we looking at? It was around my birthday May, 2017 right. I had first heard of Bitcoin in 2016 from poker, so it took about six months.

You know, learning before it actually clicked. But when it clicked, I was like, uh, you know, it’s like a Chinese fire alarm. I was like, wow, this is, you know, I started, you know, I guess you call it FOMO going in.


Yeah. And, and so that was an incredible time to be coming into steem as well. I’ve gone in a similar time, so.

March, April time. And so you were able to experience the full, um, incredible run upwards in the price of steam in 2017 and also the unfortunate awful crash downwards of 2018 I remember for a long time, the price went from, I think all time high of sort of $8, and then went to $1 for a time when it seemed like it was going to stay there.

And then the full floor just kind of fell under us and we crushed even further. What was that like for you, especially someone who had so much skin in the game at that time in steem?


Yeah. The unique thing about steam is the lockup. So you get to see it shoot up, but also you get to see it shoot down.

Yeah. And there’s not, you know, there’s not really much you can do about it except planning ahead. Um, I was, you know, I had a mixture of other cryptocurrencies at the time, so steam wasn’t so important, but I remember when it hit a dollar. And I was like, this is the time. This is why I really want to pull the trigger.

And that’s where I put a big buy on public. I bought a million steam at $1, and when it crashed down to 50 cents, I have a saying. I say, if you have an asset that you appreciate and it goes down especially 50% in value, you either a sell it. Or you double down. And at the time I had a lot of liquid steam, so I had the choice either I was going to sell it all and move on or double down.

Um, so I doubled down at 50 cents and then, um, doubled down at 30 cents, 15 cents. I kept going because I’ve really felt that you can call it stubbornness and I definitely don’t recommend it for your average investor. Um, but for me, when I, I was like a bloodhound that smelled the blood and I was like, I really don’t care about the price right now.

The market’s irrational. I’m going to buy this blood and build a reputation and a, you know, a project on the site while everyone else is in chaos. When things settled down, I should be in a nice position.


Even for someone such as yourself who was so passionate and so driven and so focused. When are times where you.

Still had struggles kind of emotionally with that, or were there times where you doubted yourself or were you very much kind of like stubborn and just, you know, this was absolutely the right, the right choice.


So being a, a little background, being an ex poker player, 10 years, um, when you do, when you play poker for a living, um, they say it’s an easy way to make a hard living because there’s a lot of swings.

So poker itself is not hard, but watching your bank roll swing is the hardest part. So about 10 years of that, I’ve become numb to the swings. So when I make a decision beforehand, it’s very black and white. I stick to it like a robot. Emotions don’t play a part in it at all, and I stay the course. It’s sort of like a, a sh, you know, you’re on a, you’re on a ship, you’re staring at, you know where you need to go.

There might be a storm. You don’t want to just go off course somewhere random. I want to stick the course and. No, the boat gets, gets sunk on the way it gets sunk, but you know, you gotta take a risk in his life, in my opinion.


Yeah, that’s brilliant. And of course you, you bought your steam and since then there’s been a fork.

So you’ve had a kind of equal amount of hive, which has done very well recently as well. So that’s very good. I want to move now towards how you initially got involved in creating three speaker and what drove you to that point. What was your kind of thinking at that time of setting that up?


Yeah, so I was a, I guess you’d call it a crypto YouTuber for awhile, and it started getting really Rocky.

I was getting strikes. Um, and then I woke up one day and I noticed Alex Jones, I’m not saying I’m a fan of Alex Jones at all, but I’m a fan of free speech. And when I saw he gets systematically wiped off of the internet. Basically just the face of the internet. I said, I don’t want to be a part of this anymore.

I want to build something. I want to focus all of my efforts on alternative platforms. So I guess you can call it a rage quit. I didn’t actually, when I’ve made my shows, I would wake up and I would just freestyle and that morning I woke up, I found the news. I said, well, I guess I’m quitting YouTube today.

So I made my video in a rage quit and then I just haven’t looked back. So I got into D tube and all of these alternative platforms, and I was really going in. I was speaking at events for them. I was doing all I could, but I really felt that they were missing the trick. And that is you have to have the quality of web two with the fundamentals of web three and that’s where I sought to make three speak, where it’s.

It draws the best, the best of both sides, from centralization, from decentralization to meet in the middle where you get censorship resistance. And that’s where the happy marriages between the two worlds. So I said, Hey, I can, you know, I could retire. I don’t have to do anything. Why not? But what, what?

What’s a world in 20 years, if you can’t say what you want to say, if you, you know, I felt like it’s sort of that. That analogy or that metaphor where they, you know, they came for the certain group first and then you didn’t speak up, and then before you know it, they’re at your door. So I felt an obligation almost to step up and, um, try to make a change.

Uh, it’s brilliant. I can relate to a lot while you sat as well. I remember, of course, I make videos myself. That’s what I do still. And I remember using those earlier video platforms on the steam blockchain at the time. The websites weren’t the best in terms of user experience. I remember there were a lot of kind of, it was a lot of buggy.

A lot of the times my videos, for whatever reason, I couldn’t even figure it out myself, wouldn’t ultimately upload. And of course I relate as well to what you said about YouTube and the treatment of Alex Jones. Of course, recently we’ve had a lot of issues with crypto YouTubers, um, getting essentially flagged or banned this, I experienced this myself just recently.

I was kicked off YouTube for a week. So I can absolutely relate to the frustration that you felt and a lot of people do feel in, which is why I’ve been such a happy user of the three speak platform. Because I know whatever videos I’ve recorded, even if YouTube has a problem with them and won’t allow me to upload there, I can always do so on three speeds, which is, it’s a real blessing.


And so I guess the next question that I have is. What do you perceive the role in the marketplace for three speak to be? Do you see yourself as a competitor directly to YouTube? Do you think it could have a rival YouTube in terms of size some day, or do you think it will always play a more kind of niche role?

What’s your thinking there?


I would really like to see through speak become a value add for all creators. I think the future is, um, sites become channels. So more and more creators are going to go to self hosting where they feel most confident. It’s like, I don’t have to rely on anybody. I don’t even have to rely on anyone’s note.

I can self host. So I really want to S I, that’s where I see the puck is going. So with three speak, what we want to offer is a decentralized backend for seeding. So if you ever want to sell posts, you can sell posts and it connect to a bit torrent system where other people can look up your, um, your channel.

And then they can see too, that’s the ultimate grassroots. From there, I want to offer things like the immutable counts on hive. Um, that, that brings the communities that brings the metadata, all of that stuff is safe. So once you start getting into SMTs, um, super chats, because what’s going to happen is people are going to have their own site and then have to build their own Superchat.

They have to build everything from scratch pretty much. And, you know, instead of having to go to 10 different sites to see your greatest degree, the great creators, I’d rather go to one interface that shows all of their sites, like channels. Immutably backed up. So I really see us. Um, we’re not really trying to compete.

We’re trying to give free speech. We’re trying to jab free speech in anywhere. We can say, Hey, we want to give you a feature so you feel safer, so you can sell posts. And eventually three speak. We’ll just be a background and you’ll just have a plethora of, you know, free market skins because that’s all YouTube.

Um, web two went from being not only the skin, but the database. Web three turns, three speak, turns all of these sites in the skins. And once it’s just a skin, you can change that anytime you want. And you have all your metadata, all your context, all of your data. So if one site doesn’t like you, well free market says there’ll be nine others that are really glad to have your business.

So that’s the market. I see three speak, feeling more of a, um, more of just a feature rich value add for all creators, whether you’re on YouTube or any other platform. Yeah. It kind of enlightened that as well.


I was wondering how you feel about the, the, um, social media app kind of platforms in crypto as well, the likes of library to view them as your kind of allies, friends or competitors.

How do you feel about those guys?


So I really liked the tech of a library where they had the seating and all of that. Um, what I’m the biggest fan of was hive steam. We call it now hive, the decentralized version. Um, because I really feel like the backbone of a web three is having an account. And contexts that can’t be taken from you.

That’s just like Bitcoin. You have a number on your screen. It can’t be taken from you. You can keep score and beautifully. That’s what this is all about. The same thing with social media context. You just want to be able to have your, you know, your fans, the people who are supporting you, your communities, and you not wanting to wake up tomorrow knowing you have those contexts.

So I really feel that having an immutable account is very important. So for an asset like library. It would be really cool to see a meet in the middle where you have the backend of a library with the front end of a hive and have that perfect marriage of a fully decentralized backend. Um, you know, I like bit tube or, um, in di tube and there’s bit, shoot, all of these are really great platforms and I have nothing against them.

I feel that the free market is a very good way to decentralize and add some censorship resistance. So I’m just filling a niche that I think that they haven’t filled, but they’re also filling niches that three speakers and trying to touch. So I think it’s a, I think more of a Coopa wishing right. We’re cooperating, but also there’s some competition there.

But at the end of the day, I would like to see a, a buffet where we get to see everyone’s content on all of these alt platforms on a front end, on a UI. So it’s not so much competing. We’re all in the same club trying to, you know, invite the same guests. Sure. That’s what it, that’s it. And so I know how much you care about freedom of speech, of course, and the ability to express yourself.


Have you dealt with any, or do you foresee in the future any of your own kind of ethical issues around that, around the certain content that might be on three speak? I know you have your own kind of terms and conditions, but have you add any. Real difficult situations yourself, which you’ve had kind of difficulty in dealing with or not knowing exactly whether or not that content should be on your platform.


So we like to draw the line at it being legal or not. So if you’re calling for violence, like you want to hurt somebody, that would be illegal. We don’t condone that. If you want to show something, you know, graphic, um, or you know something that’s just completely illegal, that’s fine. But if you’re speaking your mind, it’ll always show up on the front end.

And what the decentralized backend, if you were to upload those, just like with steam, um, you can go and make your own site. You can retrieve your own data, but three speed isn’t obligated to show that. So, um, it’s very black and white with us. We don’t get into politics. You know, we don’t get into right or wrong in terms of conspiracy theorists.

It’s about open debate. And I believe we’re adults and people can tell their stories and you can say, well, I don’t believe that guy, or I believe this person. And at the end of the day, when you have that kind of open debate, the facts really squeezed to the top because that’s what happens in open debate.

It’s called bullshit. I’ll call your bullshit. I have proof. Well, I’ll one up your proof. And before you know it, you actually get the truth. But if you have a gatekeeper saying, Oh, you can’t go against what this organization says. Or your sensor, well then that means that scent, that organization must be God because they can’t be wrong.

And when we’re talking about a corporation that has so many viewers that it has so much sway, very dangerous times.


So, yeah, I think that’s never been more necessary, especially with what’s going on with the V I R U S right now I will say too much just in case it anyway, algorithms don’t like it and whatnot.

But I think it’s interesting that the so called experts have kind of let us down at times and provided some not such great advice. And I think now more than ever, it’s more important to have that kind of an alternative viewpoint. Whether or not you agree with it, just be able to listen to that and to ultimately form your own opinions.

Cause I feel like that’s what this is all about ultimately. Right. Yup. Completely agree.


Okay. And before we get into a hive, because I’m sure you want to speak about that, I have one final question about steam of course. Because at one point, both of us and many people did have a lot of love for steam and steam it.

And so what I wanted to ask you is looking back, what do you think steam slash D met? You can go either way with us. What do you think they did right and what did you think they did wrong? And what lessons can hive and three speak. Take from that going into the future.


I think what they did right was taking the risk of a delegated proof of stake, proof of brain protocol.

I think they took a lot of good risk at the end. They did come out with Myra, which was revolutionary to scale-wise, meaning instead of having to store everything in Ram, you got the stored on a local disc, and it just means it’s 10 to 50 times cheaper to run a note. So in terms of scaling, and that really is the Steemit team.

You know, Michael Vanderburgh road scape, those guys really did a good job. Um, I really don’t have a lot of good things to say about Ned. It turned out he did some really shady things. Um, he wasn’t using the community fund like it should have been. Um, I just think that at the end he just didn’t care and he was just trying to dump as much of the community fund as he could.

And, you know, talking to developers, they were severely underpaid. Um, a lot of them were working for basically free, so it got pretty nasty at the end. And when you have a company that owns 35 40% of the supply in a pre mind fashion, why would a volunteer dev want to work on that blockchain? Because you just don’t feel like it’s yours.

So that’s when you get into hive. That’s what really was the flip, was taking that pre mind and putting it into a decentralized fund as it always tried to be. Like that’s why the Dow was made. Ned was supposed to put it into Dow and at the last minute he sold it to Justin’s son without telling anybody.


So. Right. And so you’ve alluded to where things get very interesting because. I guess the, the birth of hive STEM from a great disagreement within the community about how things should go forward, especially with the acquisition of steam it with Justin CERN, of course, is a very controversial figure these days.

I would love to know from your perspective, I guess, and feel free to take as long as you want, you know, sharing this from your perspective, what happened, what caused the division, and how did we ultimately come up with the birth of the hive blockchain?


So the biggest, biggest factor was. Ned selling to Justin sun.

Without telling anybody, not the devs, not to steam the team, because I’m really close with the Steemit team, Elizabeth, all of those people, you know, I can call at any moment and have a conversation really close. They didn’t know. They didn’t know anything. And Justin sun comes out saying, Hey, you know about steam and I’m going to, you know, all the depths are moving over to Tron and you know, we’re going to move steam the Tron and not talking to the block producers, which.

Is very, very bad. That was the first thing thing, because you know, there’s some pride here. These people have been witnesses. They’ve, you know, a lot of them heard there from the birth of esteem, put their blood, sweat and tears, and they felt disrespected, sort of like the overlord spoke. And they’re not going to ask the consensus witnesses because you don’t matter anymore.

So Dan Larimer, back in the day, you know, allegedly quit over the use of the funds because Ned wasn’t using the funds. Well, well, he made a code. For a soft fork, which is basically like flipping a switch that lets you freeze the steam in ink steak. From voting and moving and all that. That was actually implemented by the creator of steam to protect the community against the hostile takeover with the steam at stake.

The steam at stake was never meant to be boated with, so we enacted the power that the creator of the blockchain gave to us was to phrase the stake and say, well, hold on. What are you talking about? All everything. Go into Tron. What are you talking about? You’re not even supposed to be voting with this stuff.

And really what we wanted to do was freeze the steak. And then say, Hey, look, do you know what you bought? Once he agrees to knowing what he bought, then he can go and cause his Godzilla rampage, whatever he wants to do, and we’ll go do our own thing. But he at least he would be publicly neck. He’d be liable.

It’s like, well, you knew what you bought, and then you continue to act in a centralized way, thus making it a security, thus making you liable for anything that happens on this chain. So that didn’t happen. Obviously. He was saying, okay, we’ll have a meeting in three weeks. So in that three weeks, he goes and tricks, I mean, at the, let’s say he tricked them.

Um, best case scenario, best case scenario, he tricked the exchanges into powering up users’ funds, overthrowing the network, freeing the Steemit stake, and using that combined force to just overthrow the network. Put in 20 sock puppets at that point. It was, they were about 30 million steam power ahead of us.

And then, you know, everyone got on Twitter started attacking the exchange of saying, what are you doing? They backed down. So it was about, you know, about 10 15 20 million difference there. So I get pissed. Everyone gets pissed and I’m like, we’re voting right. I’m putting condos up for sale. I’m buying, you know, $50,000 for the esteem of day, powering it up and making you, I don’t care.

It’s not about money anymore. Like this is about web three. This is about the future. Like this is a small war in a big battle, and if they win this territory, that’s, that’s not, that’s a strategic territory in my opinion. Like this is, this would put a black guy on delegated proof of stake. It would destroy a whole consensus model.

That I believe is very vital for the future. So it became very personal for me, and we started overtaking the network. We actually got to about 14, right? So we’re really close to getting that 18 witnesses, the retake, the network, and everyone. It was a really great sight to see, well, random Wells are powering up.

I’ve never seen anything like it. And then something really sad happened, um, by finance was powering down. And the very first power down that they gave, which was about 4 million steam. They let Justin’s son withdraw it and no one else. And that 4 million steam knocked us down to eight witnesses and just like that.

So it was really devastating because we were like, wow, you know, we were so close and just these centralized forces are working together. It’s very, very terrible to see. Then we battle, we get the stalemate 10 and 10 and that’s when the game theory of delegated proof of stake really kicked in. And that’s if, well, if you money attack me.

I will, we will the communities where the value is, we will dump your chain. You’re buying our bags. We leapfrog off of your shoulders onto a new chain where all of that value pours into the new chain. So he’s, they forgot the fact that web three IP is worthless. There is no Instagram worth a billion dollars.

All of the best code’s open source. So he’s buying sand, he’s buying air. And the community is like, what are you doing? You’re just throwing us a bunch of money and you realize we can just move our house over here. And you see what happens. Because one of the side effects of a bully attacking a decentralized peaceful community.

Is other people don’t like that. And we became neutral. People who are neutral to us became friends via our enemy. We had a common enemy, and Justin sun obviously isn’t very popular. So what you saw was this world storm of support, exchanges, wanting to list big names, coming out, throwing support. And that’s what happens when a web two mentality tries to centralize a decentralized community.

And I think we’re going to see this more and more in the future where they just don’t get it. They’re like, well, I bought you. This is how the internet works. I pay a bunch of money. You guys do what I say, right? It’s like, no, that’s not what happens. You actually lose money, your reputation and you know you actually have to become a team member, not the captain.

You can’t just be promoted captain. You have to play in this team and. So I just think that the money attack that he threw on steam really showed how you can leapfrog off of that. Create your own chain with delegated proof of stake. And as long as you have a strong layer zero, it becomes fickle. And now as a black and white investor, let’s say, I’m just in it for the money.

You know, my steam at one point was, you know, over a dollar 50 at one point together. So that means the worst steam I bought, I’m now in the green as an investor. This is great. It’s like whatever you did was awesome. Do it again. So I think at the end of the day, delegated proof of stake became solidified.

It got its respect and people understand it. And I was like, okay, I understand it’s not for Bitcoin. It’s not, you don’t, you don’t need a tank of security. But if you want agile web three. Um, sites, you’re going to want a governance that can keep up and you want a governance that is for the people in the community.

So, um, I know I kinda got off on the weeds there a little bit, but the reason hive was built was simply because he forced us to, and it was the obvious thing to do because at the end of the day, we had, we had steam was a dead battleground. He had destroyed it. But it’s free software. So, you know, we just, we just did the obvious thing as a community and saying it wasn’t even taking our ball and going home.

It was building a better, greater platform without the Ninja mine weighing on us. And now you see all these developers. I’ve never seen so many people work on a project. I mean there’s people in there 24 hours a day from all area codes, all working. Cause they’re like, Hey, we own this blockchain now. We don’t have some Ninja mind, I can just come in and do whatever they want.

It’s like we actually have a fair delegated proof of stake system with relatively fair distribution, right? With proof of brain. You get tokens in places that many people wouldn’t be able to afford to buy tokens, but now they have a voice in a system. So, um, yeah, I think I got a little long winded.


No, that’s great.

And I think you made such an extremely important point because of course. Like most people. I was kind of concerned and confused at first when I heard about this acquisition of steam out and I was thinking for myself, what does this mean for the future of steam and strictly in terms of being an investment?

Of course, this is kind of crypto investing podcast. I always had this, I did always have the concern about the fact that steam was delegated proof of stake and that steam, it had this enormous chunk of steam and that was always a cloud that kind of hung over me. And it always kind of limited my thoughts about, you know, is this something I really want to have a, a portion of my net worth kind of invested in when they wheel so much control.

And so the fact that they’ve almost been kind of removed from the picture this time round, you don’t have that cloud hanging over you and hive anymore. It’s a beautiful thing. And what you said about the kind of robustness actually of dedicated proof of stake and cryptocurrencies as a whole, it was a really incredible sight to see.

And I’m really excited about the future of hype. I think it’s brilliant. And I’m speaking for yourself as well. Part of the reason why I admire so much is because not only do you have a lot of passion, you also have a lot of skin in the game. And so what I wanted to ask you now is about for you from the kind of investing standpoint, why do you have such large skin in the game in hive?


What in your eyes, even though of course, none of this is financial advice. It makes it a good investment for you. Yeah. So I just go on record. I have a fair bit of cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin, Ethereum. I really believe those are going to do well. Um, first of all, I want to have skin in the game with each of the consensus mechanisms, mechanisms that I believe in, because I believe web three is consensus and community and software is going to be up for grabs.

And the reason I wanted to have a lot of skin in the game for hive was simply because I trust myself. And I know if hive goes up in value, it becomes mainstream. I’m only going to have, I want to have an important voice, so it’s more for the voting rights on the governance. It’s almost like having a big minor to help secure the network on Bitcoin.

Well, I want to have a big vote. I want to have a big say. It’s not centralized, right? I can’t. Put anyone in the top 20 alone, but I can definitely have my voice heard and I can have a say, especially as it starts to grow in value as I start to continue, cause I’m just continuing like none of this is financial advice, but I’m continue to dollar cost average and it’s not.

It’s mainly from a point of view where I just want to have my foot in the door. I don’t want some Justin son to come in and try to buy a bunch of steak. I want a cup, I have a whale. I know some other whale friends. So my well, friends, we don’t even like each other, but we respect each other and we know that we want the same thing.

Personality aside, that doesn’t matter, but when it goes to war and a horn is blown, can I rely on you to fight the common enemy? And when you get enough of those people who disagree but agree when it matters, because that’s all steam was. I know you’ve been on steam. There’s a lot of people don’t like each other, but when when the aliens invaded, people were like, okay, it’s time.

Put our differences aside, we got a bigger threat to handle. So that’s basically why I have a bigger, a big skin in the game from, cause I always approach it from two point of views. I believe investing is, is a stand them a game. And when times get hard, if you can’t answer why you’re investing and the why is only money, you’re going to lose money a lot on the sheer, really good savvy trader.

If you really are passionate about something, it means you stay up in Twilight hours researching it. And when you have that much more research than the average person, your chances of success skyrocket because it becomes less of a guess and becomes much more of an educated guess. And when you obsess on these things, the only way you can obsess on something is because you have to be passionate about it.

So I’m very passionate about hive, and I’ve spent probably more hours than I care to count researching it, listening to people talk, listening to game theory, delegated proof of stake, listening to proof of stake, listening to all the bad things about it. And. Over the hundreds and hundreds of hours that pour in it eventually clicks.

And I remember times when I had a really great feeling about something and I didn’t go all in in terms of getting the size that I want because I’ll end. Doesn’t have to mean your entire portfolio. You never put your entire portfolio in anything because you know, unless you have like a thousand dollars not financial advice, but if you actually have wealth, you don’t, there’s no reason then, right?

Then you’re just getting greedy and the hogs get slaughtered, but you can allow a K a healthy point. Where it’s like, wow, this is, this is a nice reasonable chunk of money. It would definitely, you know, I definitely sting if I lost this. Um, but I see an opportunity. I think we’re at the beginning of this and with the immutable accounts with how web three’s going without a censorships going.

If I had to make a big, big bet, it would be hive. Um, aside from Bitcoin, Ethereum, of course,


In terms of as an investment for hive then as well, do you have any thoughts about potential, you know, you’re the type of person who has any longterm place targets or goals for potential market cap for hive. Is that something you think about or are you more focused on the kind of hero now building three speak building general adoption.


I like to look more in terms of time. Um, uh, I would say in a couple of years, taking a macro step back, looking at how much it’s carved out of the marketplace, that’s where I would start to, um, allow a kit because it’s really hard to go by price and have a price target. Cause if you never hit that price target, what are you going to do?

And investing at the end of the day comes in putting your money and where you think is going to rise the most. Um, so if you sit around waiting for a price target, you might miss an obvious sign to sell. Um, it would take a lot for me to sell hive simply because it’s almost become personal to me. Um, but in terms of just cutting losses, if I see in two, three years, it’s not where I think it should be, then, you know, I wouldn’t have any problem powering down and starting to sell out.

Um, of course, if it went to. You know, 10 20 $30 I’m always going to have some liquid that I’m trading with any hyperbolic moves I’m going to try to take advantage of. Just as a trader’s point of view. Um, but yeah, I look at it more more in terms of time and progress. Just build, build, build, look up in a couple of years, see where you’re at.

If you don’t like where you’re at. Re reevaluate, show and in terms of kind of game theory as well. The cool thing about hive is that the more you hold, the more kind of an incapacity you get as well from upvote somewhat not and uploading content. So. I’ve lost one unique characteristic it has versus something like Bitcoin, which, you know, I guess in theory you could lend or something, but in terms of just holding it yourself, you don’t get that kind of income or dividends from it.

So I think that’s a cool feature.


You did mention that you own a theory and some Bitcoin, so I guess it’d be kind of fun to explore. And what other coins other than hive you are a big fan of or that you are personally invested in, even though, again, none of this is financial advice.


I, I like a lot of coins.

I have what you call Zen moves, which means there’ll be a coin that I like, but I wanna invest in. I would just let it burn. Um, you know, things like, um, you know, bat link. I think these are some really good projects. I’ve gotten to the point where I feel a little stubborn. It’s like I liked the whole Bitcoin, like the whole, the theorem.

Um, I’ve never told this. I was a really big EOS holder. I was very, very lucky. I sold it at one point and the same thing happened. Time caught up. I looked over and it was a year later and I was like, Hmm, this isn’t really. Progressing where I thought it was in this fast moving. So, uh, you know, uh, I let go.

All of my U S actually sold all of my use for Bitcoin, Ethereum, and more hive and real estate. Um, and it’s a shame because I thought, you know, not thinking as he goes. I think it still can happen, but I think what’s going to happen with EOS is going to be more compartmentalized. You’re going to have a lot of people take what they need and build their own chain.

Um, so I’m just a little wary there. But yeah, I like, uh, I keep it very simple. I have a proof of work coin, I have a proof of stake coin and I’ve a delegated proof of stake coin.


So, so those, that’s the kind of main, uh, I guess kind of criteria for you that in terms of what you’re looking for in a cryptocurrency investment for you, it’s very important to have exposure to different consensus mechanisms in order to, for that kind of experimentation and seeing what works the best in the protocol more so than the actual apps themselves.


Like a link, I guess you could. It’s a protocol, but it’s something built on top of a layer one, which is a theory. So, and I diverse in that way. It’s like proof of work. I try to pick the best coin to be fair on. We think there’s going to be one coin for proof of work with Bitcoin because of how inefficient it can be.

Um, proof of stake. I think if they’re going to leave it there and delegated proof of stake, I think hives, the leader there. Um, so I just try to pick the best out of my opinion of the protocols under each of those. And I know there’s other protocols out there, but. Um, I really feel like those three are going to be the ones.



And, and you, you just briefly mentioned real estate there as well. Do you have any thoughts in terms of what’s going on in the wider economy? How that might affect real estate over the next kind of, let’s say, two to five years?


So I’m staying away from any mainstream ruleish real estate where I can go get a cheap loan, which you really can’t do right now.

Um, but if you can get a cheap loan to buy the real estate in a crowded city, I would not be around there. I would be going to places. You know, I’m here on the beaches of Mexico. I’m, you can’t get alone here. You gotta put down 40 to 50% cash if you want, if you want it. So those are going to be more realistic prices, right?

If you have to put down half cash, it’s gonna, it’s gonna get down to a realistic number because they just won’t sell as opposed to, Oh yeah, you got a cheap free loan. Go, go crazy. So for real estates, I think there’s actually a lot of people aren’t talking about, I think there’s a really good, some of these.

I don’t call them. Um, they’re not third world countries. They’re, they’re upper crusty. They’re not quite on us as par, but they’re sort of in between, um, where they don’t have a good banking system that’s just going to throw you alone and the U S isn’t going alone. You there because they consider it too risky, I think.

And it’s like crypto to me. I’m a, I’m a risk of Esther. I’ve always loved the risk. I don’t like the cushy investment. So they call me a cowboy investor around here because I’ll come and, um, I’ll look at the projects, you know, before they’re even built. And I’ll say, Hey, yeah, you know, let me get on the ground floor.

So I think that you have to be savvy. It’s not as easy. It’s not just like going and buying a house and renting it out and you’re okay. You actually have to be really savvy where you’re getting your real estate. Um, I think markets are going to get hit really hard. I think this inflation’s going to catch up and we’re going to see something that generations haven’t seen.

It’s going to be pretty nuts.


And do you think whatever happens in the wider economy is going to be a good thing or a bad thing for crypto?


I think it’s going to force crypto into the limelight as these web, as these centralized legacy systems start to fail us. Um, you know, Bitcoin keeps producing blocks.

You know, you don’t have to trust anybody. I view crypto as the cracks. To the water. That’s about the come and they’re just going to fill up because they’re there. They’re fundamentally needed. You know? I’m finding myself using Bitcoin more and more just because I need to write. It’s much easier. I’m dealing with worldwide communities now.

Dealing with banking systems, especially now is just ridiculous. It’s only going to get worse, in my opinion, and then people are going to be like, well, we need protocols. We need something that can’t fail. We need somewhere where we can’t trust. Now we’re starting to hear that more and more. The word trust trustless newness.

Um, hyperinflation printer go Burr. People aren’t dumb. And you’re saying, well, you know, money really should be a protocol and we should know how much is out there and we should have, you know, say over, you know, who gets the print, what? Right? Like there should be monetary policy. So I think it’s hard to predict prices.

I don’t like to do that, but I like to predict what’s going to be needed. And I think in the next 10 years, things like Bitcoin are going to be needed more than anything else in terms of, you know, digital economy.


Very well said. We’re almost about to wrap things up down. There’s one final kind of segment I’m going to have on this podcast, I think now, and that’s to ask every guest that I have.

One most powerful piece of advice for crypto investor and one piece of powerful advice for life more generally. So if you could offer an insight into which one of those two things, that’d be amazing.


So for crypto investing, I believe most people get mentally fatigued from missing out or selling too soon.

It’s almost like being a good NFL quarterback. If you throw an interception, you forget about it. You learn from it, you go to the next play. It’s always about what you have now, not what you had yesterday, not what you think you’re going to have tomorrow. So always be humble and appreciate it too. Of the fact that if you missed out on gains, that’s a good thing.

That means you had the potential to get them. The richer you get, the higher you get, the more you’re going to miss out on. Believe me, I’ve missed out on more than I care to tell 10 times over what I’ve ever made and probably ever will make a few clicks here, a few clicks there, and I could own an Island.

It’s not about knowing. You know, it’s not about having that that, Oh, I missed out. Oh, I missed out. It’s about being appreciative. It’s like, Oh man, I could have just made that much money. I’m a psych. I’m hype. So I would say more things than anything. The most under appreciated asset for me when it comes to investing is mental fatigue.

Don’t get tired mentally. Stay sharp. Stay motivated, and find ways to be reinvigorated. And if you want to talk about life. It’s sort of the same thing with life. There’s going to be highs and lows. Um, I like to focus on right now, I like to do something that I know I’m going to appreciate doing tomorrow.

Because emotions, um, they’re like storms. They come and they go and you might think all this storm is going to last forever. Or you can say, Hey, you know, I can use this climate to sharpen this skill, right? If you’re depressed, that means you can sharpen your ability to be thankful. Cause if you gonna be thankful when you’re at your lowest, it’s going to be much easier to be thankful when you’re at your highest.

So I just like to judo, everything that life throws at me and think of it like a video game. It’s like, okay. Something’s coming at me, a bad emotion. Um, it’s a boss. I got to learn from it, get better from it that way when I wake up tomorrow and be like, Oh man, I’m glad that I Rose to the challenge yesterday because now I’m stronger.

I have something to show for it as opposed to running from it or. I’m trying to understand it. Right? I really just like to try to, um, brute force through life. Take it one day at a time and definitely don’t let any crisis go to waste.